Hot take incoming

"OPPOsaurus WRX" (opposaurus) 04/01/2020 at 21:02 • Filed to: None

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I have my flame suit on

ICE engines should only be allowed for current models. new development into ICE should be banned. Every manufacturer has electric motors so any car on sale should be able to continue on with an electric drive.

the only thing that is better about the ICE is the sound. TO compensate to the loss of the manual transmission (which i’m sure could still carry on even thought ey are currently dying ) we could have figh ter jet style throttles.

anyway whats u guys drinking?  That thing below is 8.2%

fintail > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 21:24

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Looks like it might be 100% based on what I am reading :)

The sound and the range are superior, the latter being the key . Until there’s legit charging infrastructure both residential and on the road , nope.

Chariotoflove > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 21:26

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That’s a pretty spicy take. Perhaps the biggest reason to keep the ICEs around for a longer develop ment cycle is the feeling infrastructure and surrounding support structure that the economy runs on. If you could phase that out while transitioning and expanding the recharging network, then you would have something.

AestheticsInMotion > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 21:31

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I’m surprisingly okay with this take, just don't touch motorcycles for another decade or two .

I’m about to drink whatever this is?

Just Jeepin' > fintail 04/01/2020 at 21:32

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You think the infrastructure wouldn’t almost immediately appear, given those constraints? I’m betting it would.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 21:34

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Well, you’re wrong. Meet me in the Home Depot parking lot at 7, we’ll settle this once and for all. Been throwing around 2x4’s waiting for your candyass. Let’s go!

Just Jeepin' > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 21:34

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Since we have no idea what long-term changes will arise from this pandemic, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that stricter pollution controls will emerge and EVs would emerge as a winner.

Trump has effectively no principles. If he were convinced that pollution killed a million voters and the survivors are desperate for government action , he could be convinced to lead the charge.

Tripper > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 21:36

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It’s a take. I’m completely out on anything electric until I drive one that is actually fun outside of a P100 launch. Model S, Model 3, and bolt are the only ones I have driven but...no thanks. 

OPPOsaurus WRX > Chariotoflove 04/01/2020 at 21:37

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there are developments that are coming that will double battery range. if companies stopped spending money on ICE, electric drives would drastically improve. The infrastructure will quickly follow the dem and. I’m not talking about an overnight ban, but whatever is on sale now is fine, but stop developing new stuff and trans fer that time and money into electric.

fintail > Just Jeepin' 04/01/2020 at 21:39

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What might it cost to put a charger in every apartment and condo space in the land ? Every rental house? Landlords don’t want to pay for that, and the HOAs I’ve dealt with would kick and scream as well. And then we can get into lower income owners who can’t keep up with routine home maintenance as it is.

Then there’s being on the road. Filling my car takes 5 mins , filling the battery on a trip might take an hour, so a lot more is needed. Maybe if oil companies turn into charging companies, get a lot of publicly funded help, and create technology that allows a 15 minute charge, then maybe.

And we’ll need to account for extra stress on the power grid, too. If everyone just switches over, I can’t believe there won’t be capacity issues.

OPPOsaurus WRX > AestheticsInMotion 04/01/2020 at 21:40

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that sounds good. I bet it goes down easy and suddenly your wondering why you cant walk straight.

Just Jeepin' > fintail 04/01/2020 at 21:42

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Bah, details.

Censored > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 21:52

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In conversation, this is an ok take. In real practice, there’s no way. People drive a lot, more than the range per day. I have a customer that I routinely drive to that is 300 round trip located exactly in the middle of nowhere . Until charging infrastructure is at least   close to as convenient (t ime to “ fill” and locations), there’s no way auto manufacturers are going to abandon the ICE.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 21:55

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I think the eventual regulation of ICE cars should start by locale. Metro areas with a certain population level should start to ration out the registrations of ICE cars. This satisfies the crowd who live in outlying areas (ICEs can be freely registered for those areas ) , assuming EVs do not gain substantial range in the next few decades.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 21:55

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The one but that many still need to crack is battery production. It still sounds like we are somewhat battery constrained. Supposedly.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 22:06

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The fun part will be gener ation capacity. It takes 10+ years to build a power station by the time you leap through all the environmental hoops. C onvert (say) 5% of the vehic le fleet to electric per year and the national grid may not keep up: that’s a lot of batteries to be charged .

fintail > Just Jeepin' 04/01/2020 at 22:09

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Mind you, I am not against EVs, far from it. I just think we will realistically be in a baby steps stage of development for awhile, unless there’s a massive breakthrough in tech.

fintail > Just Jeepin' 04/01/2020 at 22:09

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Mind you, I am not against EVs, far from it. I just think we will realistically be in a baby steps stage of development for awhile, unless there’s a massive breakthrough in tech.

facw > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 22:09

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I don’t really like these prescriptive solutions. From my perspective, the best thing to do is to put a price on carbon, whether via a cap and trade system, or via a direct tax.

Just Jeepin' > fintail 04/01/2020 at 22:12

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I agree, but we can do amazing things when we’re desperate.

Just Jeepin' > AestheticsInMotion 04/01/2020 at 22:13

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I don’t even ride but I’m more interested in electric motorcycles than cars.

DipodomysDeserti > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 22:18

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We definitely need to kick fossil fuels, and electric cars offer a huge advantage. However, a s a society, we need to stop piece mealing paradigm shifting solutions together. The systems we have in place are not nearly as robust as they need to be, and we need to develop more integrative, sustainable infrastructure.

It’d be like if you designed a second floor to go on a house with a crumbling foundation.

We are going to be given a huge opportunity to fundamentally change some things in the next few years. If we waste them were doomed (which may already be the case).

OPPOsaurus WRX > Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen 04/01/2020 at 22:19

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u could put up wind power like a mo fo tho. Fuck the hoops. That shit needs to change too. The shit off Na ntucket, or Martha’s Vineyard, is a perfect example. Some rich people would be able to see them so they opposed them. At one point Boston cut a slice through a neighborhood for a highway, so why can;t we tell a few people to just fuck off for this too? I;m not even taking peoples’ homes, I’m just putting a windmill up a mile from their house.

OPPOsaurus WRX > fintail 04/01/2020 at 22:21

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instea d of $20 a week on gas, you pay $20 a week to have a power parking spot. The thing would pay itself off in a year or two. Yes, one run is more than a couple hundred, but if run a line to 10 spots, the per spot cost goes way down

fintail > Just Jeepin' 04/01/2020 at 22:21

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Indeed, but we’re not that desperate, and that miracle might bend some rules of tech as we know it.

Right now we’d need a 200+ mile charge in no more than 15 minutes, battery performance that doesn’t collapse in imperfect conditions, and cheap universal charging infrastructure - universal for all cars and all drivers, and as available as the local filling station, or facilities in every residence.

OPPOsaurus WRX > fintail 04/01/2020 at 22:21

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and HOA can go fuck themselves with everything. stick it all up there til they pop.

HammerheadFistpunch > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 22:22

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Now if the only thing ice was better at was  sound there wouldn’t be a reason to make them. But we know that isn’t the case. 

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Just Jeepin' 04/01/2020 at 22:23

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Considering all of the restrictions Europe and the UK have put on future ICE sales, etc, why then has the infrastructure not d rastically improved over there? Yes, it’s better, but that still won’t solve the issue of people who, say, live in apartments or park on the street...how will they charge their vehicles at home?

fintail > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 22:24

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Easier said than done.  And every landlord situation is effectively an HOA, they’ll balk at spending the money even if the cost can be passed along.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Censored 04/01/2020 at 22:25

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that is all valid, but its not li ke ICE is going to disappear right away. I wouldn’t ban driving them, just making new ones. Just think if you drove 100 miles (which very rarely happens) to a meeting, with investment in the infrastructure, you could plug in for your 1 hr meeting and have ple nt y of charge to get home. Residential code is switching to include a 220 outlet in a garage. We’re just moving too slow with it.

fintail > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 22:26

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That’s one part of the trifecta which would work for homeowners anyway - more than a third of the country doesn’t fall into that category . Still so much to do in one jump - it would take massive subsidy, or a massive breakthrough.

OPPOsaurus WRX > fintail 04/01/2020 at 22:26

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at some point though, people will not rent just the way that people wont rent for things like no A/C or dishwasher or something.

fintail > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 22:27

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I think a lot of properties out there lack amenities, especially apartments. The n we’d need publicly available charging, someone’s gotta pay for it.

Just Jeepin' > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 04/01/2020 at 22:32

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I’m sorry, you were expecting a cogent take as well as a radical one ?

Yeah, I have no idea how these things get worked out. I’m just anxious for them to be solved, for a cleaner world.

SiennaMan > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 22:51

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(I don’t like to bring this up, but the people whose neighborhood’s were carved up for those highways were poor and not white pretty much everywhere where they had the option, one of the dark sides of the US interstate highway network..

 Personally,  I'm a fan of the idea of decentralized solar with smart grid improvements where we can both increase capacity and grid resiliency..

SiennaMan > fintail 04/01/2020 at 22:59

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The feds could provide a tax break to landlords who do it. HOAs are more typically in races with garages, I have a hard time seeing even the most F’ed up hoa stopping you from running a 240v line out there. The poor, in my experience, are typically driving cars that are 10-25 years old. With his plan we’d it’d be at least 2040 before charging infrastructure had to be sorted out there (and might also be done as a last mile effort to decommission or repurpose most g as stations).

 Personally,  I would be ok with an exception for motorcycles (as asked about) and manual transmission cars.  Cars as appliances should convert to electric, cars as toys should be allowed to stay ICE.  

LastFirstMI is my name > AestheticsInMotion 04/01/2020 at 22:59

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Aftershave?

SiennaMan > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 23:02

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What I think we really should do first instead is ban new ICE lawn equipment. There’s no reason why new push mowers and string trimmers and the like can’t be battery electric..

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Just Jeepin' 04/01/2020 at 23:08

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I’ve come to grips with it, being more environmentally friendly way forward, but I’m not considering switching until the infrastructure and range are comparable to what we are used to now...the only thing that worries me is that it seems manufacturers of EVs are putting shorter range in their smaller cars and not really worrying about it being more...200km, say.

I don’t LIKE SUVs, CUVS, etc. I DO like small cars. If I go on a long road trip, I am perfectly happy doing it in a small car, but with choices like that on their part, I may be stuck having to get something larger...

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 23:20

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IF we could get ICE over 50% thermal efficiency with mild hybrid help then I think we shouldn’t give up on them. I especially like to imagine a world where I’ve got a free valve mild hybrid car That has a big range of performance and efficiency.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/01/2020 at 23:22

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Problem #1: windpower and base load don’t mix. You can’t just tell people “sorry, you can’t charge your car today, it wasn’t windy”. Windpower doesn’t let you have fewer thermal power stations, it just lets you run them less often.

Problem #2: you know what’s a key ingredient in e lectric motors? Neodymium for magnets - only a pound or t wo per car, but lots of cars . Know what’s a key ingredient for wind turbine generators? Neodymium - not so many tu rbines but a ton or two of magnets each. Kn ow what’s a material that global processi ng capability is already stretched on? You guessed it. And unfortunately neodymium tends to be associated in the ground with thorium. Which is radioactive. So you can’t just dig the shit up and melt it unless you want a bunch of dead workers and a pile of radio active waste. And yes, you can bui ld both EVs and wind turbines without magnets, but they’re more expensive and don’t work as well.

Problem #3: Rich people have lawyers, wh ic h makes fu cking ’ em a slow and expensive process .

Apart from that, you’re golden. And I totally wouldn’t give a shit if I couldn’t buy a new ICE car - since they turbo’d and emissions’d the dayli ghts out of them they’re all boring anyway. Give me a nice smooth electric for a DD and an ancient carburetted beast for S unday drives, and I’ll be happy as a clam.

fintail > SiennaMan 04/01/2020 at 23:35

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Some good points. I wonder how many landlords could afford to do it with a tax break  (I think the’d just want it for free) , and how much of it should be subsidized, especially as we’re in at least a moderate economic crisis already, in a system with a threadbare safety net and lacking some much needed benefits had by other developed nations. It might not end up as a priority. I am not a fan of the existing tax gifts for those buying 100K EVs. Maybe some actual trickle down policy can be created to aid in this dream.

The couple of HOAs I have dealt with would definitely be against people running lines on their own (as some DIY types would probably cause a catastrophe) , and would also balk at building it in all at once, as residents using ICE cars with no plans of changing wouldn’t want to pay up. It’s really tough for multifamily users unless it is installed at the time of construction, or is a high income development. In my region anyway, a lot of people live in apartments and condos, and many don’t have garage parking at all. A charger at every streetside or surface lot spot too?

I think we might also be at 2040 before a lot of this is viable. Sometimes I think the same date for range and charging issues. I also think “toy” would be easily debated . What makes a workaday manual Mazda or VW more of a toy than an AMG or M car?

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/02/2020 at 00:40

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A vast majority, including my current minivan, have manual transmissions. I really like manual transmissions. I’ve also driven electric cars, and really enjoy the lack of a transmission. The trans is just there to compensate for the limited power band and torque curve of an internal combustion engine, and as such, they won’t be missed, manual or automatic, and nothing needs to be offered as a compensation for losing a manual when you have the goodness that is a torquey electric motor.

I can’t wait for the day when I can switch over to an EV. As a renter, that’s not going to happen right now. My dad has a perfect setup for his Volt with solar panels on his roof, but he’s retired and doesn’t have to worry about how or when his car gets charged, unlike those of us still working. I’d like to have a car with the flexibility that the Volt has, but I suspect that such plug-in hybrids will be history by the time I want to purchase. If I have to go pure EV I’ll keep my Mazda around for times when an EV won’t work for me.

And my drinking tonight? Peach soda. It was $2 for a 12-pack.

Wheelerguy > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/02/2020 at 01:20

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I won’t fight this take.

That said, I want that Rambler rotary engine Torchinsky found.

Not for road use, no, but for racing.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/02/2020 at 04:26

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No point forcing anything...the market is doing that work for them. ICE development has pretty much stopped anyway in most realms apart from electronic and computational control... especially so with respect to diesel engines.

The lack of infrastructure to support EV is a curious exercise. In my part of Oz, our roadside service organisation has invested tens of millions in charging infrastructure in regional areas...our town had ours come online a couple of weeks ago.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/02/2020 at 08:22

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I’m glad I will be dead and buried before that future becomes reality.

SiennaMan > fintail 04/02/2020 at 11:06

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This is where I like the idea of a manual transmission exemption.  It's straightforward easy to do and understand.  That could also be how you deside whether new ICE motorcycles are exempted or not.   On the 240v to the garage,  I was thinking of a place like where I live where I'd be violating city ordinances if I ran the line myself instead of a qualified electrician.  Do most HOAs really take the view "if we're not all doing it no one is allowed to"?  If that's the case,  the solution would be a state law prohibiting HOAs from interfering with an electrician installed line to the garage.   I agree that none of this is simple or likely to be a high priority in the US over the next 5+ years.  If I had to predict what will happen I'd say the rest of world will push the industry and then in the 2030s we'll sort out the very real issues you raise with the help of examples from China, the UK, the EU, New Zealand,  Australia,  etc..

fintail > SiennaMan 04/02/2020 at 13:00

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I don’t know if I see a reason for that exemption . These days manual cars are usually not significantly more efficient (if at all) , and are often outperformed and outhandled by slushbox cars, too. My non-tuned MB station wagon can probably dust many of them, why wouldn’t it be exempt?   Motorcycles are such a small part of the fleet mix that they probably won’t matter.

To be clear, my HOA thoughts are for attached properties, not tract house orchards, which would be much easier to deal with . I live in an area where in my zipcode anyway, there are probably more attached dwelling units than detached. From what I have experienced with HOAs, individuals are seldom likely to gain approval to do such electrical work in a common or detached garage, as one is sharing space with others, and the liability risk in this litigious society has to be immense. That state law might work if the state agrees to fund an insurance policy in case things go awry. Maybe mandate it for new builds, which would be doable - but it will take some time for everyone else to catch up, and nobody wants to spend money. People and governments both are fairly broke right now, unless they are of the demographic who already bought Teslas with taxpayer help, or are in a few industries.

China might create some tech, but I wouldn’t want to follow a totalitarian kleptocracy on legislation, it probably won’t work in an area where states can’t even agree on where to mount license plates. The others are maybe a little too progressive for most Murkans (and might have population density/demographic differences that don’t translate well), but could probably have infrastructure ideas . And even outside of policy, IMO there needs to be another leap forward in tech. I know EVs have advanced amazingly in the past decade, and another advancement is needed to either charging speed or range . Many drivers take many road trips each year, and when I want to do 800 miles in a day, I don’t want to be forced to take at least a couple of 75-90 minute best case scenario breaks, maybe being stuck in BFE while waiting for a charge, or worrying about where to charge, or finding a point that will work on my car - we don’t even have standardized fast charging across all cars . I think that’s a more significant block than policy or even access to charging.

Jordan > OPPOsaurus WRX 04/02/2020 at 19:21

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EV's still don't have enough range for most people, are too expensive, and are too heavy. Also, they don't have a great record when it comes to long-term reliability.